| Author | Message | ||
     Gunr Message Board Member Username: Gunr Post Number: 995 Registered: 09-2011  |
I've sometimes wondered how hot a bullet gets when it leaves the muzzle. Lead bullets sometimes get close to the melting point, when fired at near their maximum velocity. Jacketed bullets probably get somewhat hotter when driven well above 3000 fps. I'm curious about how much burn damage a hot bullet can cause to a human body, when the bullet is fired at very close range, and doesn't have a chance to cool down. Maybe the burn damage could kill, if the penetration of the bullet didn't. Is that possible? Are there any medical doctors in this bunch, or any body else car to comment on this. Does anybody know of any test that were ever made to see how much heat retention there is after a bullet has gone downrange? | ||
| Westerly1965 Message Board Member Username: Westerly1965 Post Number: 2208 Registered: 09-2010  |
I dunno but seems like if it was that hot it would cauterize the wound channel on the way through. I am not a doctor though and I have never been shot at close range so I can't really say....  | ||
| Dinadan Message Board Member Username: Dinadan Post Number: 604 Registered: 11-2010  |
Gunr - an interesting question. I have no data, but I am going to make a guess that the bullet is moving to fast to cause burn damage, and that by the time it is slow enough to burn it will be too cool to cause damage. When I was a kid I could touch a red hot pot bellied stove with the tips of my fingers fast enough not to get blistered. Burns happen fast but not instantaneously. | ||
| Heyjoe Message Board Member Username: Heyjoe Post Number: 2232 Registered: 02-2009  |
the melting temperature of lead is 621 F. lead bullets are gas checked to prevent melting so its in the ballpark of 600 F. | ||
| Blitzkrieger Message Board Member Username: Blitzkrieger Post Number: 252 Registered: 05-2011 |
Gas checked? Please explain. Under common sense assumption (if there is such a thing) the bullet would get hotter than the casing due to friction from traveling down the barrel. My wife has a nice little scar from a hot .22 casing landing in her bra and not being able to remove it quick enough. lol | ||
| Louiethelump Message Board Member Username: Louiethelump Post Number: 2280 Registered: 12-2010  |
A gas check is a copper cup that fits on the base of a cast lead bullet to protect the base from the heat and erosion of the burning powder pushing it down the bore. It is generally used on cast bullets in magnum handguns and rifles that will be traveling over 1200 or so FPS to minimize leading. Gas checked revolver bullet:  Pic of gas checked next to a plain base bullet:  | ||
| Blitzkrieger Message Board Member Username: Blitzkrieger Post Number: 255 Registered: 05-2011 |
I see. Learned something new today, thanks Louie ;) | ||
| Naa_collector Message Board Member Username: Naa_collector Post Number: 5276 Registered: 06-2009  |
I have an aluminum scuba diving tank that I like to shoot. .22LR rounds just splatter on it. 9mm dents it slightly. Even my 7.62x39 from my SKS doesn't pierce it, but does pretty good damage. But a 20-gauge shotgun slug goes clean through it and ends up inside. That's some massive power! When I recover the 20-gauge slugs from the inside of the tank, it's just cooled molten lead that has conformed to the shape of the inside of the tank. Hitting the tank and going through the metal completely melts the whole slug. So, it's definitely hitting the 600 degrees to melt the lead! That's some heat. | ||
| Blitzkrieger Message Board Member Username: Blitzkrieger Post Number: 256 Registered: 05-2011 |
^^ I saw a video somewhere a while back showing .22 bullets hitting a sheet of fairly thin plate steel in slow motion. When the bullet hit it, there was some liquidation of the lead as it penetrated the plate. | ||
| Redhawk4 Message Board Member Username: Redhawk4 Post Number: 2551 Registered: 02-2009  |
Collector, I wonder if that heat comes from the work (friction) required to rip through the metal rather than from being fired, Aluminum is quite an abrasive material with it's natural oxide layer. If it was too soft on impact with the tank, it seems it would just splat and not penetrate. I can also see how a shotgun slug, by not being a close fit in the barrel could get hotter than a normal bullet, as the gases can heat the side surfaces more. While I understand the need for a gas check on the rear of the bullet which is in contact with the burning powder, it seems to me the time from ignition to the bullet exiting the barrel would be too short to really heat the whole bullet very much. If the whole bullet got to 600 degrees or so it would take some time to cool down to a manageable temperature IMO, and I've not noticed any noticeable heat in bullets recovered soon after shooting, so while you may get a high surface temp at some point this would soon be dissipated into the rest of the bullet. In addition I've not recovered bullets that look like they have got hot in terms of discoloration which I'd expect to see on copper heated to 600 degrees. Again I'm guessing, it's an interesting question and as an Engineer it got my mind working as to how you could even measure it with basic equipment. Firing the bullet (probably in reality several given the amount of water needed to stop a bullet) into a known quantity of water and measuring the increase in water temperature, having done some previous work on heating bullets to a known temperature in an oven and then dropping those in to water to get data on the contained energy would be one way and better than chasing a bullet with a thermometer. Now all we need is a volunteer - perhaps we could get a government grant | ||
| Theysayimnotme Message Board Member Username: Theysayimnotme Post Number: 510 Registered: 02-2009 |
When I was in basic training we worked in the rifle pits pulling & marking targets. There were more than a few ricochettes that bounced into the area where we were & of course we just had to pick them up. Yes they were hot. Reminds me of the joke Minnie Pearl would tell of the man who picked up a brand new horseshoe. When asked why he dropped it so fast he said, "It don't take me long to look at a horseshoe." | ||
| Heyjoe Message Board Member Username: Heyjoe Post Number: 2234 Registered: 02-2009 |
"chasing a bullet with a thermometer" might be a suitable occupation for a few of our less psychologically developed board members | ||
| Gunr Message Board Member Username: Gunr Post Number: 999 Registered: 09-2011 |
"Chasing a bullet with a thermometer" Wow! I like it! That's what I should have titled this thread. You got a winner Joe! | ||
| Argleargle Message Board Member Username: Argleargle Post Number: 376 Registered: 02-2010  |
Elastic versus inelastic collision is simple math. The failure mode of an object is not necessarily part of these equations. The question of impulse appears so many times so far in this thread. This thread really looks like a good one, too. Impulse of acceleration, and impulse of deceleration are specifically the questions asked so far. What are these things and how do they apply to the high-speed world versus sitting on your table? Low velocity versus high velocity versus properties of projectile and target aren't even the same due to environmental factors or even contaminated or inferior ammunition. The heat in the equation is the chemical plus the kinetic. As the barrel lengthens, so does the opportunity for chamber pressure to rise. In the exact way of a fire piston, temperatures can briefly flash due to chemical or internal pressures turning to friction. Also not addressed are the fluid properties of ballistic pure lead versus certain targets. Remember that in like, there is no one perfect solution, but let's hear more like this! Also touched upon is a property called specific heat, related to heat density. The finger on the hot stove and implication if a clean finger in the molten lead is something else. It is an effect named for its scientific discoverer. Won't help you research it. the finger survival is due to flash boiling of water, creating a steam cushion. Water that changes physical phase to gas drops in temperature. It is this property, but slightly different, that causes deforming or frangible projectiles to lose kinetic energy traded for heat. Nature balances her books. The "false trail" of measuring the temperature by water bath was laid for someone other than me. Heat capacity of a specific object is like momentum. Kinetic energy is like slapping water really hard such that it stings. Momentum flings the cannonball deeper into the water, resisting the forces of deceleration. This is in fact, the property of inertia. Destruction if a projectile object is more extreme when faced with a harder and more unyielding object which is struck. Again, the question of impulse again is implied. How much energy? How fast? You guys better check out MC Hawking. Seriously. | ||
| Chopprs Message Board Member Username: Chopprs Post Number: 5672 Registered: 09-2009  |
.......Louie, I have some gas that needs to be checked! | ||
| Redhawk4 Message Board Member Username: Redhawk4 Post Number: 2556 Registered: 02-2009 |
Choppr's that sounds even more hazardous than chasing bullets with a thermometer, with about the same survival rate as catching bullets in your teeth. | ||
| Argleargle Message Board Member Username: Argleargle Post Number: 380 Registered: 02-2010 |
Black powder guns can get away with a paper base wad for a conical bullet. Sort of like that whole "paper patched bullet" thing. Make your own with a cutout punch and a cereal box. Infinite "nitro wads" mode is now active! GCBW: gas check base wad I was also going to drop the word "pyro" in relation to Sam's ammo. Have a blessed day! Different game all together. Theoretical kinetic energy has too many variables in an actual gun. "Percentage of error" aka "error bars" are too large to reliably discover kinetic energy loss due to friction of projectile deformation. You could TRY to do it subtractively with physics math. Errors in measurement will swamp your actual desired calculated value. This is similar to something called "orders of magnitude" of the forces of interest that "do the work" in ballistics. Coefficient of friction of the bullet as it passes through the air is related to the amount of velocity loss through drag. The bullet, in fact, heats up from this and is simultaneously cooled by the passage of air. The question is which one dominates the equation. This is totally dependent on firing conditions and the properties of gun and ammunition. | ||
| Naa_collector Message Board Member Username: Naa_collector Post Number: 5282 Registered: 06-2009 |
Yes, Redhawk, I'm sure of that. I doubt the slug is extremely hot after leaving the barrel. Since they are shot from a smooth-bore barrel, I'm betting they have minimal contact with it before it leaves the muzzle. The slugs have the rifling, such that resistance with the air spins them. BTW, I'm VERY impressed with the ballistics of shotgun slugs. They're fun to shoot--but a bit expensive. | ||
| Argleargle Message Board Member Username: Argleargle Post Number: 381 Registered: 02-2010 |
NaCl, some shotgun slugs are held in a wad just like shot. When dusted with mica, wad slugs gain 50+ feet per second with no other changes. This assumes your crimp and stack height is good. High-speed friction is a different game than low-speed friction. A piece of metal rubbed in your hand isn't undergoing unimaginable stresses in a split second journey. It's like the difference between tapping glass with your finger and hitting it with a glass break. By the way, Miss Bacon knows about guns. She was telling me about the new high-tech 20 gauge long-range slugs. She thinks the green tip 20 gauge slugs are beautiful to look at, even if they are from Remington. I have to agree with her. She was telling me that she can get in excess of 250 yards with her 20 gauge bolt action slug gun with rifled barrel. I'm glad she finally found a long gun that she can take on restricted-zone hunts. Some areas are shotgun-only unless pistol or bow. There are a few small eastern US areas that don't permit metallic cartridge hunting. She and I both are eagerly awaiting that huge 28 gauge revolver once it gets the laws ironed out. I was going to ask her out skeet shooting with it once I get one. | ||
| Louiethelump Message Board Member Username: Louiethelump Post Number: 2291 Registered: 12-2010 |
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| Naa_collector Message Board Member Username: Naa_collector Post Number: 5285 Registered: 06-2009 |
I've had LOTS of fun with 20-gauge slugs. I can shoot them at least 200 yards and see the puff of dirt as they hit, although you DO get quite a bit of drop at that range. But that's pretty amazing peformance with a shot gun. I was rather impressed. And add that to being able to punch a hole through a half-inch of aluminum big enough to put your thumb through. I'm betting that would punch through a car door. Maybe I should try some 12-gauge slugs. | ||
| Pogo Message Board Member Username: Pogo Post Number: 112 Registered: 11-2011  |
Might want to invest in a recoil pad for 12 gauge slugs. It takes a LOT of energy to get those up to speed. May be just me... don't have the meat on my shoulders that I once did. | ||
| Argleargle Message Board Member Username: Argleargle Post Number: 385 Registered: 02-2010 |
Gas-operated shotguns tend to kick less. Heavier shotguns tend to be more pleasant. I agree on the recoil pad completely. Also consider light loads. Nobody said you had to shoot full-house 12. | ||
| Gunr Message Board Member Username: Gunr Post Number: 1005 Registered: 09-2011 |
Pogo and others in the North West. Your friendly BiMart store has a great sale on until Thursday. Usually they have some center fire rifles at 20 to 30 bucks off. This week they have all Reminton and savage rifles, and, all Remington, Benelli, and stoeger Shotguns at FIFTY bucks off. Probably the best deal there, is the Savage Axis bolt action rifles, in .223 and up. I bought one in .223 a while back. Yesterday I shot 6 groups at 100 steps using 55 grain hornady's One group was just over 5/8", the other a little under 5/8" Not too shabby for a bolt action rifle you can buy this week for $217 and change! I think I going to pick up another one in .243. The nice thing about it that they will both look the same, and if my other half doesn't see them together, she will think I have just the one!.......................... unless she reads this thread! | ||
| Redhawk4 Message Board Member Username: Redhawk4 Post Number: 2563 Registered: 02-2009 |
Argleargle wrote "NaCl, some shotgun slugs are held in a wad just like shot" Collector, have you changed your name to Sodium Chloride (NaCl) - you truly must be a salt of the earth type, or is it just an Argleargle thing? I have 12 gauge slugs for close range Black Bear protection when camping on my Mountain land and a 44 mag on my belt in case my 12 gauge is too far away to get to in time. Recoil isn't too bad, but it does depend on which load and cartridge length you are using. There are a lot of options, at close range any 12 gauge slug is going to hit hard, so the more controllable 2 3/4" ones are fine by me. I believe Remington even make a version labelled "low recoil". As with any gun ammo combo, being able to hit the target and quick follow shots are my preference. No point breaking your shoulder and getting ripped up by a bear, all in one day. Some of the gas operated shotguns with the recoil reducers fitted can make shooting loads much more bearable, I just make do with my short barrel Mossberg 500 pump. | ||
| Bud Message Board Member Username: Bud Post Number: 1912 Registered: 10-2009 |
I have a Browning auto 5 with a slug barrel and shoot 3 in. slugs in it. It has the rings that you adjust for recoil, and it's not bad on the shoulder! Browning is making the auto 5 again, with a few modifications from the old auto 5. Gunr, Sure would like to go to a Bimart sometime! None around here anywhere close! | ||
| Blitzkrieger Message Board Member Username: Blitzkrieger Post Number: 259 Registered: 05-2011 |
Ha! I have a Remington Auto 5 that dates back to 1912/13 and still shoots like a champ. Just regular old smooth bore shot barrel that is marked full choke so I am unsure if I can fire slugs or not. Always heard it is not a great idea to do so out of a barrel that is not built for slugs so I guess I will learn from you guys or cut a slug out of a round and fit test it to the end of the muzzle before I even attempt it. It also has the adjustable rings for recoil. It is the Browning design but is one of the farmed out versions from the early days mine being the Remington version and the other being FN. | ||
| Wildtim Message Board Member Username: Wildtim Post Number: 424 Registered: 01-2011  |
Naa_collector: "And add that to being able to punch a hole through a half-inch of aluminum big enough to put your thumb through. :-) I'm betting that would punch through a car door. Maybe I should try some 12-gauge slugs. :-)" A lot of stuff goes right through a car door: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm | ||
| Blitzkrieger Message Board Member Username: Blitzkrieger Post Number: 260 Registered: 05-2011 |
Cool slow motion video of bullet impacts. From 6:20 - 7:30 shows .22 impacts and what appears to be liquification of lead upon impact. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfDoQwIAaXg | ||
| Gunr Message Board Member Username: Gunr Post Number: 1008 Registered: 09-2011 |
Fantastic video! My brownie can take about6 or 7 FPS. Do you think the film will come out as good? | ||
| Blitzkrieger Message Board Member Username: Blitzkrieger Post Number: 261 Registered: 05-2011 |
You might be able to capture an impact of a rock thrown by hand with that. lol | ||
| Argleargle Message Board Member Username: Argleargle Post Number: 390 Registered: 02-2010 |
I've read about some digital cameras doing "high speed video" and it's only just a setting on some cameras. I saw footage of someone hitting gelatin with his camera. Yep. Threw the camera at the gelatin. Art film. |
